‘I had to move away from everything that I ever had’: Chemically exposed residents of East Palestine, OH, and Conyers, GA, have been left behind

“I don’t think it’s safe. If I go into my house, I get sick… our animals get sick… These are serious issues. We’re seeing serious things go on and, from where we were in the beginning to now, it’s just progressing.”

e kick off the new season of Working People with another crucial installment of our ongoing series where we speak with the people living, working, and fighting for justice in America’s “sacrifice zones.” In this episode, TRNN editor-in-chief Maximillian Alvarez speaks with a panel of guests about the ongoing public health crises in East Palestine, OH, where a Norfolk Southern train derailment in Feb. 2023 changed residents’ lives forever, and in Conyers, GA, where residents continue to deal with the toxic fallout of a chemical fire that broke out in Sept. 2024 at a facility owned by pool chemical company BioLab. Panelists include: Ashley McCollom, a displaced resident of East Palestine; Hannah Loyd, a displaced resident of Conyers; and Kristina Baehr, a community safety lawyer with Just Well Law.

Additional links/info: 

• Ashley’s Facebook page
• Hannah’s Facebook page
• Just Well Law website
• Maximillian Alvarez, Working People / The Real News Network, “‘Everytime we come back, we all get sick’: GA residents affected by September BioLab fire are still going through hell”
• Maximillian Alvarez, Working People / The Real News Network, “Trainwreck in ‘Trump Country’: Partisan politics hasn’t helped East Palestine, OH (DOCUMENTARY)”
• Maximillian Alvarez, Working People / The Real News Network, “One year later, East Palestine residents want Norfolk-Southern held accountable”
• Maximillian Alvarez, Working People / The Real News Network, ““Let’s unite!”: Poisoned residents of America’s sacrifice zones are banding together”
• Steve Mellon, Pittsburgh Union Progress, “Vance visit on derailment’s second anniversary leaves residents wondering, ‘Who has our backs?’”
• Grace Gibson, The Georgetown Environmental Law Review, “Hawaiʻi’s Red Hill Water Crisis Isn’t Over”

Permanent links below…

• Leave us a voicemail and we might play it on the show!
• Labor Radio / Podcast Network website, Facebook page, and Twitter page
• In These Times website, Facebook page, and Twitter page
• The Real News Network website, YouTube channel, podcast feeds, Facebook page, and Twitter page

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Maximillian Alvarez:

Alright. Welcome everyone to Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today. Working People is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network and is brought to you in partnership within these Times Magazine and the Real News Network. This show is produced by Jules Taylor and made possible by the support of listeners like you. We’re broadcasting today’s show on 89.3 WPFW out of Washington dc, the home of jazz and justice. For folks across the DMV, my name is Maximilian Alvarez. I’ll be hosting new episodes for the month of February and my co-host Mel er will be hosting next month. Today we are kicking off our new season with another crucial installment of our ongoing series where we speak with people living, working, and fighting for justice in America’s sacrifice zones. Now, more working people live in sacrifice zones today than we realize and more of us are being set up for sacrifice than we’d care to admit.

And unless we start banding together and doing something to stop it, the best that we can do is sit and hope that our community won’t be the next one to be upended by an explosive train derailment or a toxic chemical fire. The best that we can hope for is that our homes are not the next to be destroyed by evermore frequent wildfires and evermore destructive hurricanes that we and our families won’t be made sick by some massive waste incinerator or petrochemical plant, some industrial hog farm or fracking operation landfill or military base near our homes. You may think it won’t happen to you, but neither did so many of the residents that we’ve spoken to over the past couple of years. This ongoing investigation began two years ago when I started speaking with the chemically poisoned residents living in and around East Palestinian, Ohio, a small working class town about an hour outside of Pittsburgh, February 3rd, marked the two year anniversary of the day that changed their lives forever when a Norfolk southern bomb train derailed in their backyard on a frigid Friday night, followed three days later by the disastrous criminal and unnecessary decision by Norfolk Southern to pressure emergency responders and contractors to empty five cars worth of toxic vinyl chloride and set them on fire, releasing a massive black death plume and exposing residents to toxins that have been making them sick ever since, like carbon monoxide, hydrogen chloride, and even phosgene gas.

And late last year, I began speaking with residents living in and around Conyers, Georgia, who have been living through a hellish situation that is both distinct from and eerily similar to East Palestine. At the end of our last season, I interviewed three local residents who have all been affected by the nightmare inducing chemical fire at the Biolab facility in Conyers, which is about half an hour outside of Atlanta. And the fire broke out on September 29th, 2024. The fire was pool chemical company Biolabs fourth in the last two decades, and residents have described experiencing breathing difficulties, headaches, dizziness, skin rashes, and other negative health effects after being exposed to the fumes from the fire. Ashley McCollum is the very first resident of East Palestine that I connected with two years ago, and Hannah Lloyd is the first Conyers resident I connected with. Today I am truly honored to have both Ashley and Hannah with us on the show together. And we are also so grateful to be joined by Kristina Baehr. Kristina is a community safety lawyer with Just Well Law. Thank you all so much for joining us, and as always, I wish we were speaking under less horrifying circumstances and we are sending all of our love and solidarity to you and your communities. Ashley, I want to come to you first here. We just crossed the two year anniversary of the derailment. How are you and your family doing what has happened since we last spoke?

Ashley McCollom:

Well, first Max, I’d like to say thank you for having myself and others on here to be able to speak. It’s been a long stressful ride. Nothing has changed that. It feels like the town is basically the same, the reactions, the uncomfortable feeling, the stress you walk in, you can clearly smell something’s not right. So it has been going consistently the same and it feels like we don’t know what safe is and everyone’s confused and running a mile a minute and we’re getting nowhere.

Maximillian Alvarez:

And Ashley, you yourself, you had to move, right? I mean since we last spoke, you had to get out of your home, is that right?

Ashley McCollom:

Yeah, but you still have to deal with the burden of what happened your forever home that you don’t want to put that forever problem on someone because we don’t have clear answers of what we can do. But I mean, I continue to pay a tax on something that I don’t want to put on someone else, and I don’t know if I’m okay doing so and haven’t had the right directive from anyone involved in the incident that happened on February 3rd.

Maximillian Alvarez:

Man. And I want to dig into this more and we will over the next hour. But Hannah, I want to come to you because you are one of the voices that our listeners last heard at the end of last season. And I wanted to just ask if you could tell our listeners about what’s been happening in your life and in Coner since we last spoke a few months ago.

Hannah Loyd:

Well, one thing that has recently happened is the fire chief resigned and we’re not sure why. And they are still running, but they’re not manufacturing is what they’re stating. Since we talked last I up and left my house and I had to move away from everything that I ever had, and I’m better, but I’m not, if that makes sense.

Maximillian Alvarez:

It does. I mean, could you tell people a little bit about what that was like? I can only imagine what you’re going through leaving your home. We talked about the health effects that you were feeling living near Conyers. I mean, have those lifted since you’ve left? I mean, I guess, yeah. What wait are you carrying now that you’ve had to leave your home to escape this tragedy that you did not cause?

Hannah Loyd:

So since we’ve left, yes, we’re better, but every time we go back to get more stuff that we need, we get re-exposed and we get sick again. The last time we went, me and my daughter went up and within a couple of hours she was vomiting. She had a surgery performed when she was six weeks old. She’s not even supposed to vomit. So if she does vomit, that means something serious. So that means that whatever it is is still there and it’s almost like it’s getting worse. So not only was she sick, I was sick. So trying to pack more stuff up and be sick and all that stuff, it’s just hard. And you know what you have to do for your family and your kid, but you also know that there’s just no one holding any accountability still. So you just have to figure out what you have to do somehow get it done and just do it. That’s the only way I had three doctors tell me plus her, so four, to leave the state that that’s all that I could do to get better. And we did because we had no other choice. My daughter was sick and she’s three. So when a three-year-old can’t really express things but say, I’m sad, I’m itchy, I hurt. And then you go somewhere else and she’s happy and she’s laughing and she’s fine. That tells you right there, something’s not right.

Maximillian Alvarez:

God, I’m like,

Hannah Loyd:

That’s the big two changes since I talked to you last.

Maximillian Alvarez:

I’m just, again, I’m getting really emotional here because as a father, I can’t imagine what’s going through your heart in that situation. And of course you got to do what you got to do to protect your family. But Christina, I want to kind of bring you in here on this because escaping danger is not accountability for the people who have caused residents like Hannah and Ashley to leave their homes. I want to ask first if you could say a little more about the kind of work that you do and about your involvement in the case of East Palestine. What have you been seeing from your side as a community safety lawyer about the situation that folks in East Palestinian are really facing right now?

Well, I’m a survivor of toxic exposure myself, and so I started a little law firm called Justwell Law to help other families, and now I get called into sick communities all around the country and I help them unite and rise up and take on the bad guys. And I’ve done that now in Hawaii representing the Red Hill victims against the United States Navy. We won that case. We had a trial in May, and now we’re waiting on the judgment so that those people can get paid and move on with their lives. And then while that case was on hold, I got a call from an expert in East Palestine and invited me to come and meet Ashley and some of her comrades in arms. And I heard a familiar story. I heard about doctors not treating people. I heard about the EPA lying to people and telling them that it was safe when it wasn’t.

I heard about tests not being done properly and not testing for the right things, which drives me insane. And I got fired up. And when I went that December night, I had not a single client, but I was willing to represent any one of them, just any one of them. And I started talking to more people and more people. And now I represent 744 of them. And we filed on Monday in an enormous case, first in Ohio, and we’re seeking a jury trial and then separately in DC claims under the Federal Tort Claims Act against the EPA and the CDC because the EPA and the CDC have to stop coming to communities and telling people that it’s safe when it’s not, and looking at sick people and telling them that they’re not sick. There’s a movement of families around the country, including Hannah and Ashley and many, many others who are standing up and saying, no more, we’re not going to do this anymore.

We are not going to allow you to poison our families and we’re going to stand up not just for ourselves and our community, but for the next community. And one of the things that I think is so beautiful is seeing Ashley and Hannah’s relationship, and likewise, my clients in Hawaii knew the clients at Camp Lejeune, knew the families at Camp Lejeune. There is this club that none of us ever wanted to join, but it is a fierce and loyal community and people are ready to take a stand against institutions, and I’m just here to help them. It’s their movement.

I mean, I feel intense solidarity with you on that front as a journalist who’s been connecting with these folks that way, but hearing the same things that you’re hearing, I keep telling people it feels like I’m investigating a serial killer because I keep hearing the same things from communities across the country, whether it be causes of the pollution, the gaslighting about how it’s all in their heads, the sort of ways that communities are split apart between the people who are feeling the effects and the people who are not all that stuff. You can only interview so many people from what feel like disparate, disconnected communities and start hearing them describe the same things before you start putting these connections together. And I guess before we have our first break, I wanted to ask if just on that point, what you would want folks listening to this to know as someone who has spoken with community members in Red Hill, spoken with community members in East Palestine, I guess what’s the sort of big message folks need to understand here about how widespread this is or what the real kind of situation we’re facing is in this country?

Kristina Baehr:

It is very real, and that’s what I want people to know. I looked at my own testimony recently. I testified before a jury about the people who poisoned my family. And when I looked back at what I wanted that jury to know is I wanted them to know that it happened, that it’s real and it can happen to you. And I just had this. And when this happened to me, I had never, for me, it was toxic mold, but I had never heard of Stacky. I never, I have two Ivy League degrees, my husband has three, and neither of us have even heard the words. And there is a reason for that. There is a massive coverup in this country. There are people who are trying to influence, there are people who say that there are acceptable limits of whatever X is, right? And so you just talked about the gaslighting, but this is how it plays out. The federal lawyers at Red Hill stood up in front of a judge and said, judge, there was never enough fuel in the water to make anybody sick. It was always within acceptable limits, and it didn’t even affect half of the waterline. Therefore, anybody who says that they were sick or believes them to be themselves To have been sick were psychosomatic. I mean, These are federal officers [who] called my 7,000 clients who had rashes, vomiting, diarrhea, kids who had welts on them, esophagus that were burned, pets that were throwing up. All of them are psychosomatic, all of them. And of course, that’s what they said about me in my own case. I was just as stressed out mom during C, right? In every case, they say the same thing. It’s all within acceptable limits. And therefore, anyone who says they’re sick really is suffering from a lot of stress. Well, what caused the stress, dude, right? It makes me so angry because I hear that same thing day in and day out, this BS about acceptable limits. And no, I know that Ashley and people in East Palestine are sick because I hear the same symptoms, the brain fog, the short-term memory loss, the intense sweating in the middle of the night night. My clients in Hawaii had migraines, and now the United States is finally issuing the paper that says, oh yeah, according to our own data, there were more migraines amongst Red Hill families and there was more burning of the esophagus. This is true. This is historical fact. And when you come in and you hire experts to say otherwise, you are denying a historical event and it’s deeply unsettling. And the EPA and the CDC in particular have to stop looking at sick people and telling them they’re crazy.

That’s my soapbox, but I will continue to proclaim it from the mountaintops that this is real and it really affects people. And why can’t we show up in East Palestine with people to help? Why do we have to show up at Red Hill and take tests of water and say that it’s all non-detect when we just didn’t test for the right thing? Right? Literally, the Navy and Hawaii stood up and said, there’s no indication the water is not safe. People could smell the fuel. They knew there had been a fuel release right next to the well, but the officers in charge had the audacity to tell the people at town halls that there was no indication the water was not safe. So I get these people at deposition and I say, well, tell me sir, is the smell of gasoline, is that an indication? It’s not safe?

Of course it is. And what I think you’re doing, and I’m doing, and everyone here is doing, is we are bringing common sense to these issues. We are speaking in plain English about what is actually happening and we need to continue to do it. And so you’re doing God’s work by bringing these issues to light, by bringing these stories to light because they’re real. And it can happen to us and we are next, unless the people in charge follow their own safety rules, unless the institutions actually follow their own rules, it will happen again. And so I’m proud of the families that are rising up and saying not on our watch.

Maximillian Alvarez:

Ashley, I want to come back to you here for a second because as folks know, vice President JD Vance just visited your town this month on the anniversary of the derailment, and as a Senator Vance teamed up with Democrat Sherrod Brown to put forward the Railway Safety Act in response to what Norfolk Southern did to you and your town. Now, that Bill effectively went nowhere, but when Vance was in East Palestine earlier this month, he did vow to the cameras that more action would be taken particularly on holding Norfolk Southern accountable and implementing new rail safety measures. So let’s take a listen

Vice President JD Vance:

And you can be damn sure that over the next six months you’re going to hear a lot from the vice president of the United States and the entire administration. If Norfolk Southern doesn’t keep these promises, we are going to talk about it and we are going to fight for it. And so certainly I think that we can say with confidence, the president shares my view that we need some common sense rail safety. And yes, that is something that we’re going to work on over the next couple of years.

Maximillian Alvarez:

So that’s what Vance said. Ashley, how did that trip go? How did folks in town respond to the vice president being in East Palestine?

Ashley McCollom:

He has been here multiple times before. Any help is good help to the community. I mean, people look at different colors, different sides, it doesn’t matter. Anyone that’s willing to help and hopefully things can go through a lot and they should be because we’re just one example as to why these should have been put in place beforehand. And I hope that he comes back and makes as many visits as he did before to help us and get these things put in place because we were all just people sitting in our town enjoying our normal evening. And because this wasn’t there and things weren’t done correctly, we’re now here in this situation talking to you. And granted, all of us enjoy talking to you, but it shouldn’t be a situation that it should come to this and we should be going through it because we already see this big disaster. So it would be a good idea for things to be put forward quicker if possible.

Maximillian Alvarez:

As we’ve talked about ad nauseum on the show with residents of East Palestine, with residents here in South Baltimore who are also being polluted by another rail company that’s CSX transportation, we’ve spoken with them on the show, so I’m not going to go into the whole kind of explanation here, but you guys who listen to the show know that when we say the Norfolk Southern train derailment in East Palestine was avoidable, it’s because we’ve heard directly from railroad workers that they are chronically understaffed, overworked. There aren’t enough guys to check the cars to make sure that faulty systems like the one that the train had with its bearings don’t end up with trains on the track that shouldn’t be there. You have people in place to make sure that doesn’t happen. You have safety layers done by union workers across the rail industry who have been getting laid off having more work piled onto fewer people for years, right?

All of these top-down corporate and Wall Street minded decisions to cut costs and boost profits have translated to a railroad system that has over a thousand derailments a year, and workers fleeing the industry on mass because they can’t take this anymore. And they keep warning that more catastrophes like this are going to happen. And so of course we would be hypocrites if we didn’t say we were in favor of more rail safety of more accountability for these companies. And frankly, I don’t give a crap if the person helping residents of East Palestine has a D or an R next to their names, just help. These people need help. That’s all we care about right now. But to this point, it’s not just rail safety that community members need. And Christina, I wanted to ask if you could say a little bit about the other needs that folks in town and around, let’s not forget, it’s not just East Palestinian, Ohio, it’s the Pennsylvania side, it’s folks from miles around. What do folks need that are not going to be addressed by more rail safety and more accountability from Norfolk Southern?

Kristina Baehr:

I think more than anything, they need healthcare. When a disaster like this happens, why can’t we come in and teach doctors how to treat toxic exposure? Why can’t we talk about how to detox the body? Why can’t we talk about some of the signs that you might look out for, things that might happen down the road instead, the EPA comes in and says it’s going to be in and out of your body in 48 hours. I don’t know if you have heard this Max, but I’ve heard that at every site, okay, well, vinyl chloride in and out of your body in 48 hours, jet fuel in and out of your body in 48 hours, where is this 48 hours coming from?

What scientific ground is there for this 48 hours vs. That’s not true and people are sick and let’s help them get better. We know how to treat toxic exposure. We know for example, that there are people who are exposed to these chemicals in their vocations. What are the treatment protocols we’ve developed for those people? What are the blood tests we have had them take? How about just c, b, C count for people? Can we help them get better? And instead, we come into these places and we tell the doctors not to help anybody. So I think that we need some real medical care and from doctors who care, from doctors who care.

Maximillian Alvarez:

And it should really be noted that this is explicitly what residents have been asking for demanding. There are coalitions like the Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers Coalition, folks from in town calling for the President Biden and now President Trump to issue an emergency declaration for East Palestine, which would unlock a suite of federal resources including guaranteed healthcare for all affected residents who are bioaccumulation these toxins in their bodies. They’re feeling the effects of them. I was standing in East Palestine last year, I could smell the damn chemicals. I could taste the metallic stuff in my mouth. Imagine living in that stuff for two years and being told, ah, it’s all washed out of your system. I mean, this is the kind of gaslighting that we’re talking about here, but you can feel the lie just by standing in the middle of the street if you’re there in East Palestine. And Hannah, before we go to another break, I wanted to ask you what if anything has been done to address the causes of the Biolab fire and the impacts that it’s been having on your community?

Hannah Loyd:

I mean, everything is real. Kind of like we can’t talk about it until the lawsuit or whatever because the county turned around and sued by a lab, so they say, oh, we can’t have any updates or anything to say until this is resolved.

Kristina Baehr:

Sorry. No, after Hannah talks, I want to answer that. That is bs.

Hannah Loyd:

So we’re just here every day living in it. In the beginning we had updates and this that, and we all knew it wasn’t right, and then it was like radio silence. And then the new commissioner came in and she was worried about the jobs of the people that were there. And now something’s been put out about the people that work there have the option to either retire with some kind of guaranteed salary forever. Everything’s real hush hush. So to be honest with you, I don’t know because we don’t know because they haven’t said anything. But it’s toxic there. Nothing’s changed. It’s toxic.

Maximillian Alvarez:

And Christina, we got to go to a break in a second, but yeah, I know you add something you want to hop in on to follow up on that.

Kristina Baehr:

There is no legal basis to stop communicating and speaking truth to the people who are there. And what happens is the bad guys always do that. They say, well, their investigation’s pending, and therefore everyone has to be silent. And that is, there’s no legal basis for that. And it’s unfair to the communities that litigation is about accountability and truth and transparency. And for the bad guys to come in and say, we’re going to shut it all down just makes it even worse.

Maximillian Alvarez:

I want to, in this second half gang, talk a bit about the special and important circumstances that have led Hannah and Ashley to you guys have actually connected over social media and it’s really incredible that we have you both on together. Having interviewed you separately in East Palestine and in Conyers, I wanted to ask if Hannah, you could just tell us a bit more about that. How did you and Ashley find each other? What was it like for you to be going through what you’ve been going through in Conyers and then find someone like Ashley, who knows what it’s like to go through that and what have you guys been talking about in that time?

Hannah Loyd:

Well, honestly, once I started learning things about different disaster areas and started hearing about East Palestine, east Palestine, I started watching YouTube videos. I think it was one, it may have been, I don’t remember who did it, but it was, I watched some on here there and I was like, I’m literally going through the same exact thing as her everything. And so I just messaged her and just kind of went from there. And she has been the biggest mentor, helper how to get bring pop out of my kids’ hair. I have literally been so honored to have met her even though I’ve never met her in person because she has helped me through some of the hardest days that I never thought that I was going to have to go through things that she learned in her area with kids and her own kid that she was able to teach me that I had no idea why my kid was screaming. And she told me why. And it was right. And I mean, She’s become family to me, to be honest. And I am just so thankful that I was able to connect with her just through social media from a disaster that literally uprooted all of our lives. And we talk sometimes every day. Sometimes we go weeks without talking. You just never know. And we don’t always talk about disasters. We talk about stuff to do with my kid that I never even thought of how to make something simple for dinner. I mean, we talk about it all, so it’s not always disaster related. But she taught me about chemicals, dioxin, what to ask my doctor to test me for what? To ask my doctor. Things that I never thought I would have to ask anyone or my doctor. And so I’ll say again, it’s literally been an honor her to be my friend.

Maximillian Alvarez:

Ashley, what is it like to get a message like that having gone through what you’ve gone, I have to imagine it’s both bittersweet because it’s like it’s happening again, but you can hear how much it means to someone like Hannah. What is it like for you to get a message like that?

Ashley McCollom:

It’s emotional because a lot of what she mentioned, I remember those times and going through that and being confused with everyone else, and I had people reach out to me that became my mentors the same and help me through it. And even like how she said, we can just talk about normal things because it’s nice to know that we went through similar things and have that break away to still be people, still be moms, still take care of a family out of every curve ball. This has thrown both of us from watching an entire plant catch on fire and not knowing is it safe, is what is going on normal. Hey, I went through that. Don’t be ashamed to ask. A lot of people need that need to understand we were there. I mean, the community understands. We understand each other and it is a privilege to meet Hannah and so many people and to be there and have that support because it feels like you have no other support but each other.

Maximillian Alvarez:

And I guess if there are folks watching this right now who are living near a landfill that they suspect is making their contaminating their water, making them sick, if there are folks listening to this who are saying they are describing what I’m feeling the same way. Hannah, you felt that when you watched Ashley. I guess what would be your message to folks out there right now who maybe believe that it’s nothing or maybe it’s all in their heads? What would you advise them to do?

Hannah Loyd:

Well, I mean, some people it didn’t affect and some people it did, and some people still are unsure. I mean, if you are really unsure Or you’re on the fence, message me. I’ll talk to you. I mean, I have no shame in anything. I lost everything I ever had. I mean, can’t. I’ll be here. I’m here. I’ll talk to you. I may have to call Ashley and ask her. I may not know, but I’ll talk to you. I’m here. I have people in Max, Christina on our other interview, we talk to her. So I mean, we all kind of help each other I guess. So if you’re in doubt, just reach out because even though you may Not be for sure, think it’s in your head, just if you want to know, just ask Ash.

Ashley McCollom:

Don’t ever be ashamed to ask anything, especially in this, don’t ever be ashamed or don’t ever feel like you’re the only one because you’re not. Just remember that you’re not the only one. And it does get hard and it gets lonely and it gets tough.

Maximillian Alvarez:

And Christina, I want to kind of toss that to you as well. Again, as someone who’s seen this from your side working as a lawyer, but hearing these stories from folks in affected communities as far away as Hawaii to here in Ohio or anywhere else, what would you say to folks who are maybe feeling that or thinking that as they’re hearing us talk right now, what would you advise folks to do if they suspect they are also being contaminated poison, lied to about this stuff,

Kristina Baehr:

Look for The helpers and look for the truth tellers, and they’re always there. And when I was in Hawaii, I showed up in the midst of it. I mean, not November, it happened in November, but I was there the first week of January. And so I was there to help point people to the test that Ashley’s talking about to say, here’s what you need to ask your doctor. I’m showing up in East Palestine a little bit late just because I was invited late and these events kind of happened around the same time, so I was focused on Hawaii. But in each case, there are truth tellers. There is someone who worked for the railroad who tried to get on neighborhood pages and warn people about what they were being exposed to. There are good people and there are people who are telling the truth and find them and then follow them and ask questions and find each other, find the helpers, find the truth tellers, and find each other.

Maximillian Alvarez:

And on that, I think again, this is really important, powerful lessons for folks listening in Washington take to heart. And before we go to our break, Christina, I have one more question that you sort of referred to earlier in our conversation. I think it’s still really hard for a lot of average Americans to confront the reality that their government is not looking out for them. I’ve heard it from affected communities who trusted the EPA when agents were telling ’em, you’re fine. And then they keep accumulating the evidence in their bodies that they’re not fine. So before we go to our final break, do you have any other kind of thoughts you wanted to share on that, about folks who are still trusting of the agency that was set up to protect us against things like this? How do we manage the sort of the truth tellers, the whistleblowers, the folks who are there who want to help residents mixed in with all these other interests that maybe don’t?

Kristina Baehr:

It was hard for me to come to terms with as I was, I used to represent the United States, and I believed I was one of the good guys and I think I was charged with doing the right thing. And so when I had people standing up in federal court, these lawyers saying that it basically didn’t happen. I was personally upset because our country is supposed to represent us. Our country is supposed to do the right thing in those circumstances, our federal officers are supposed to tell the truth. And then I learned, actually, that was a really good for me from a litigation perspective. I’m so glad they took that approach. And I hope that the railroad does the same thing because a jury and a judge, it doesn’t go far with them. But I think you’re going to learn when you’re faced with this to start trusting yourself too.

So I said find the truth tellers, find the helpers, find each other, but also find yourself because you know your mama heart or your dad a heart knows. And so trust yourself over the institutions around you, and then trust the people that you trust. And what we’re finding when I gave the example of it’s like kids are in a school and they’re smelling smoke, and the firemen came and said, stay where you are, you’re fine. That’s how the Navy acted in Hawaii. That’s what’s happening when the EPA shows up to these communities. They’re more interested in getting the economic world back on track than they are in protecting the people. And I think all of us have a lot of distrust after everything that happened with Covid. And we all learned a little bit to trust ourselves over institutions. And that’s not a bad lesson, but I also believe that these institutions can change, and I think that there are good people within them. So when you look for the helpers, you can look for the helpers in the institutions too. They’re there.

Maximillian Alvarez:

Ashley, Hannah, Christina, in the final kind of 10 minutes that we have to, I wanted to focus in on where we are as of now, February, 2025. What do you, your families and your communities still need? What are the needs that are not being met? Right? Yeah. We mentioned earlier in the episode that JD Vance went and visited East Palestine on the two year anniversary of the derailment, promising that there will be more developments in terms of the Trump administration’s focus on railway safety, on holding Norfolk Southern accountable. But Vance also explicitly said that a disaster declaration, and I quote may have been very helpful 18 months ago. I don’t know that it’s still helpful today. Let’s talk about what your community still need, who is trying to meet those needs and what people watching and listening can do to help. So Ashley, I want to start with you and then Hannah, we’ll go to you

Ashley McCollom:

For how long we’ve been doing this and it doesn’t get easier. I remember doing the first interview with you and I feel like I’m not as emotional as I was in the beginning because now I’m really getting into that reality and it’s stagnant it, and there’s no help. We need either a disaster declaration or we need to be put on the national priority list because people shouldn’t still be sick. People shouldn’t feel uncomfortable in their home. Home is where you feel safe and comfortable and no one’s feeling safe and comfortable. If you’re questioning, is this from that health insurance, great, we could do that. But when you treat those things and you put those people right back into those places, how much good is that going to do? I mean, some of us are still displaced. I feel like we need help for those people that are struggling. I don’t know how to do that. I mean, there are some great people that are doing food drives for people that are less fortunate and really put everything out there for the people in town. I mean, this is a little bit bigger than what we could even anticipate.

I don’t think it’s safe. If I get sick in my house, if I go into my house, I’m sick. I mean, I’d love to move forward. Our animals get sick. They stayed in there for a day, they’d come back vomiting, they come back with excessive bowel movements, almost like when you change a dog’s dog food or they’re really sick. I mean, these are serious issues. We’re seeing serious things go on and for where we were in the beginning to now, it’s just progressing. I mean, we need some things. Looked at again and looked at more thoroughly and looked into these residents homes because we are a part of the environment. No matter what disaster you’re in, no matter how long time has passed, we are a part of that environment. We make the impact. And these people need to live there. We need to live there. And if you can’t, it’s not an environment anymore for humans.

Hannah, how about you?

Hannah Loyd:

That was pretty powerful. So I mean, like I said, I mean they earlier, they’re just kind of there and they’re not, they briefly address things. They have never ever even said they’re sorry or hold accountability or any of that. So that’s out the window, whatever. I just think that the county, the company, everyone just needs to take accountability for what happened. This isn’t the first time, it’s the fourth time people are there that are deathly sick. I mean, they’re sick and they have no other choice but to stay there unless someone just comes and rescues. I mean, we we’re almost like silence. Now it’s not really a big topic anymore. Nobody’s really talking about it. When I had to meet with a new doctor because I’m having new issues with my liver, which is very, very scary. And he said, oh yeah, I remember when that happened. My eyes were burning and all this. And I said, yeah, imagine being three years old and that happening. No one is understanding or taking accountability. They just want us almost to

Speaker 4:

Be quiet. Quit talking about it. But I mean, honestly, I think

Hannah Loyd:

That the citizens there now that are still there, they don’t know what to do. They don’t know where to go. They don’t know how to even seek legal counsel with getting out because a lot of people are elderly people. They have nothing but their little social security check. And these are people that I grew up knowing and to see them so sick, it’s just heartbreaking and knowing I got up and left my house. So it’s almost like we just need help somewhere for these people that can’t get the help or have the means or anything. I mean, there’s a couple little different groups that are having meetings and going to churches and meetings and all this, but I mean, I don’t think that anyone is really hearing them, if that makes sense. So we just need to be heard. Again, doctors need to be guided in what and how to treat the patients because they’re the ER doctor to know that day how to treat me. And then all these other doctors don’t know what’s going on. Something doesn’t make sense. So the doctors need to know how to do the care. They need to know how to treat people. They need to know what to help people get out. Like me, my kid, get out.

So we just need to and know what’s going on. Don’t tell us that we can’t talk about it because the county’s suing and we can’t tell you why or any kind of progress. Just give us an update. Y’all did that in the beginning. Why can’t we have it now? What happened to where we can’t know anything, if that makes sense.

Maximillian Alvarez:

It does. It makes grim necessary sense, right? I mean, it’s the bare minimum of what people should expect. And we can’t even get,

Hannah Loyd:

I say, like I said at the first show with you, max, even just, I’m sorry, still haven’t even gotten that.

Maximillian Alvarez:

And again, by all appearances, it looks like we’re heading in the exact opposite direction of where we need to go in because when we use the term sacrifice zone, which is a horrible ghoulish term in a just world, that term would not exist. But when we’re saying that, what we mean is what you’ve just heard Ashley and Hannah describe it is an area where people have been left to live in conditions that threaten life itself and have been left to flounder there to either move if they have the ability to or stay, wait and die. And that is unacceptable, and that is how we are treating more and more of our communities, whether they be in the path of toxic industrial pollution or like in intensifying weather events through manmade climate change.

The thing that is consistent is that working class communities, working people just living their lives are having their lives obliterated and having no help when they need it most. And we as a people, as a class, as humanity need to do something to band together and say, enough is enough. In the final minute or two that I have you guys, I wanted to just go around the table and ask if you had any final messages on that front to people listening to this and watching this, whether they live in a sacrifice zone or not. What do you want folks to take away from this conversation? How can we fight back and what’s going to happen if we don’t? So I guess, Ashley, let’s start with you, Hannah, and then Christina, please close us out.